To Nigel and David. This article AND the subjects was that due to leaving EU people with British passports has to do fingerprints etc.
There is no need to suddenly have a whole history book written here, who did this that etc.
It still stands that ALL outside EU, not JUST the British could be more scrutinised. Whether you like it or not, the Spanish has a right to do it, so no point of moaning.
Nigel MaudeQuite correct Nigel
Churchills opinion was that Britain was with Europe but not of it.
People should read his Zurich speech and they may understand the politic of the treaty of rome .
A very different world to now.
His concept written out by the “new speak “zealots of the new age .
The marshal plan aid to the U.K. was originally a loan mainly to support refugees.
That was later revised and in 2017 was finally paid off.
The five eyes partners where warning of the Ukrainian invasion before the exercises where started in Belarus.
The stunned disbelief in European government circles caused by their political naivety and slavish belief in their world view.
Real politic obviously not a concept known to them.
Similar to Cameron’s modest demands and the horror and furry at the rejection of the imperialist project buy U.K. democratic process of argument and counter arguments.
I stand to be corrected over the Marshall Plan comment, and glad to be corrected. My tutors were obviously economical with the truth. The idea that Churchill came up with a united Europe, is only correct in that the UK was not to be part, he considered 4 great superpowers, USA, Russia, UK & Commonwealth and Europe.. However, taking regard to all the nit pickers of my blog, you readily and happily ignore (except DH) the UK stood up to Hitler and although perhaps close, was never invaded and occupied. One could say that initially the UK stood up to Putin, and started the ball rolling like Churchill, and it is those that start instead of waiting for others that are the prime movers and should be accredited. As for who won, never mentioned, except "before we talk" and left at that. The endearment was to try and lighten the subject, but any comedy seems today to cause offence to someone. When derogatory comments are banded the writer has lost the argument using the "if you can not win, insult". A debate is a debate not a slanging match, by which we can share views and learn.
Some interesting notions aired here..
I can agree with Morgan about who won. Those born after 1945 did. A period in Europes history of unprecedented peace and prosperity.
What did individual protagonists nations get from the war. Not who won.
The USA turned from a isolationist state to the post war economic and military superpower it still is today. It’s industrial complex providing the materials that ultimately led to victory in all theatres by the allies.
Soviet Union at huge cost of 20million lives defeated nazi Germany military seizing Berlin.
It’s sphere of influence creating ultimately the Warsaw Pact. Until it’s collapse, commencing 1989.
Russia still having great influence on European politics and economics today.
What did the U.K. get from the war , apart from being the only nation in Europe to resist the fascists on its own for two years , and vital part of the defeat of nazi Germany and imperial Japan, not a great deal, nearly a million dead, economically exhausted most treasures given to the yanks for material. The beginning of loss of empire. Nearly as many problems in victory as Germany had in defeat.
West Germany and Japan despite destruction and human loss, we’ll untimely they became the great democratic nations they are today. The USA funding reconstruction of both. Shaping their constitutional and political institutions. The only state capable to do so.
So modern Europe is a construct of the Anglo Saxon and soviet influence.
In the west Nato and marshal plan came before the treaty of Rome .
The United States of Europe concept proposed by surprise surprise an Englishman Winston Churchill .
Then developed by the French politicians into a basic industrial economy steel and coal.
The purpose to stop conflict between nations.
The ability and freedom to make different choices democratically. In as Ulla says the Europe we all belong to.
The choice for Britain to be what it wants to be in cooperation with European states not integrated in a federal one. This is the original 1975 referendum agreement but the ECC doesn’t exist any more. actually Morgan uk is really ok and certainly no worse than other places I have visited.
The frictions in the European Union, Poland, Hungary, club med, are a result of culture and economy differences, a one size fits all approach of the commission financed by the frugal west liberals and the now politically significant east ,former soviet and conservative societies.
Compromise will need to be show,
the dismissal of call me Dave calls for minor change and resultant Brexit, a harbinger of the present growing frictions particularly with Hungary.
My earlier statement,European unprecedented peace and prosperity .
Poor statesmanship and dogma now threaten that reality. As Ulla rightly points out in Ukraine.
Over the last decade European Union has had a fractious relationship with its closest allies the USA and U.K.. both warning that over dependence on Russian energy has a mistake., summery ignored. and other frictions over nato contributions and trade …
Now all coming home to roost .
If European Union wants to be a power so be it .
But it needs some old style diplomacy lessons first.
Some typical British 'we won the war' comments here.
No mention of Russia, who were the ones who basically destroyed the Nazi war machine. 75% of all Nazi casualties were inflicted by the Russians.
But people will believe whatever 'facts' that support their views.
Nigel MaudeThe UK received the largest proportion (26% of total) Marshall Plan funds (Germany 11%) but don't let reality get in the way of your rant.
Nigel MaudeAside from your general comment with which one can choose to agree or not, what is this “well dear”? How patronising and rude!
Nigel, is it necessary to give a full lecture about what happened more than 70 years ago. I do appreciate very much the freedom we have, looking at what is going on in Ukraine and elsewhere. However this putting people in boxes whether Remain or Brexiteer is rather tiresome - and very British.
Anyway thanks for your European information, a Europe we all belong to.
We won. Well, all of us did. Including those drafted from the empire to fight a war they had nothing to do with. The yanks still think they won it, saving Britain from impending defeat (actually, recorded history tells a strangely similar tale) But we'll take the credit for all of us. Because we won it.
So, what's your excuse for modern day Britain?
Dear me Ulla, you are just like the remainers. Debate and learn.
Before we go into winning the war, who stood up to Hitler? And then needed assistance from the Commonwealth and America.
Then the Marshall Plan from America to assist Europe, not UK.
You are either too young or bigoted, I like to think the former, I grew up in bomb sites and ruins, so I appreciate what Ukraine is suffering. Remember it was the Spitfire and Hurricane and the bravery of the young some only 20 years of age that demolished Hitler's Luftwaff, not an American plane, but I agree their bombers helped flatten Germany into submission!
And yes, the EU stuffed 2 fingers to our PM when he wanted changes, well dear, enough is enough, and if you do not appreciate your freedoms of today are due to the stubbornness of the British, you are a very ungrateful soul. I feel sorry for you and those that think alike.